Probiotic Wars

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This topic contains 19 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  DrWoeller 34 minutes ago.

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  • #1302

    Michael Joseph
    Participant

    Hi Dr Woeller and Autism Mastery 2019,

    Just a few minutes ago, I was participating in a webinar from one of the botanical companies that we all use. They have great products, and I know many of us have used this company to great success.

    But something that I feel they were guilty of in this webinar and something that I find is too common in the industry is the “War” over probiotics.

    In this webinar, there were several comments regarding how spore forming species are “superior” because certain studies have shown this or that, and that in Europe bacillus are used “via prescription”. This frustrates me to no end, because a) since when do we judge the value of a nutritive substance or “probiotic” based on its prescriptive value and b) L Rhamnosus is the most studied probiotic in history. They specifically stated that “beneficial” probiotics “irritate” the microbiome if taken after a series of antibiotics. Clinically, I have used ABx formulas that contains Saccharomyces Boulardi and B Bifidum and patients didn’t have the “post antibiotic diarrhea” that they were expecting. I have also used only Bifido strains in the same manner with great success. I also use the “Good Belly” LP299v as a stand alone, and away from Bifido, and again, empirical symptoms diminish. I just can’t see how ONLY spore forming probiotics are the singular solution, because clinically (and based on test reports) I have seen results without ever using them. I have been able to find balance in patient’s GI tracts from using your (Dr Woeller) protocol and Dr Shaw’s suggestions from GPL.

    I have also spoken directly to the VP of a probiotic company that showed me lab documentation and actual photographs on how L Plantarum competes with Bifido species and inhibits them from adhering and binding. So, perhaps this study referred to in this webinar didn’t have that information? This is a big reason why I tend to separate lacto from bifido in probiotic protocols.

    I am beginning to feel like there is a very one-track-minded approach that some people have when using probiotics. In my practice, I use a lot of single species taken in different doses at different times for different people, and I approach probiotics and gut flora from the same method that I approach nutrients: what is deficient, and what is in excess? I have had so much success with this concept with people who have not been seeing improvements prior.

    I wanted to see what your take was on this. I know this is a bit wordy, but I am so frustrated with every supplement or botanical or probiotic company saying that theirs is THE BEST and only theirs will work, when my clinical experience is that there are so many great products from so many great companies. I have maybe 35 different probiotic products that I use with patients and all of them have great benefit in replacing missing flora and balancing the gut. I like using them all and I have yet to be disappointed. Some patients will gladly take 3, 4, 5 different types and send back rave reviews. And just on a closing note, the most popular species in my practice is the L Rhamnosus. No single species provides such dramatic results in overall GI improvement than that one, including improved digestion, less bloating, better bowel movements, removal of “brain fog”, and even weight loss.

    Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts.

    Dr Michael Joseph

    #1303

    DrWoeller
    Keymaster

    Dr. Joseph,
    Thanks for your thoughtful post.

    Just last night I was talking with my wife about various claims on supplements. Many companies are always jockeying for position with their particular products. Some are more vocal then others. I see this all the time with vitamins for Autism or other conditions. Last week I received an email from a parent with a link to ‘new’ supplements that some people online are raving about. These new supplements have the ‘best’ ingredients for vitamins, minerals and even a probiotic. When I looked at them they are really no different than what other high-end companies provide. What made them attractive was their good looking website, flashy labels and marketing language. I am sure they are fine products, but not significantly different than what is already available. Besides, how many different ways are there to be make a B-complex vitamin?

    Companies with their probiotics often do the same thing. I have tended to take the approach of using multi-strained probiotics for most situations overall from a general health standpoint, then get selective for particular situations and groups of people. It sounds like you have taken the selective/individualized approach to a new level which is awesome! I could see you creating educational material around your approach as I am sure you have a lot of experience now with many different types of patients.

    I do not believe spore-forming probiotics are far superior over traditional probiotics for all people and vice-versa. The reality is every person is unique with response to treatment. This is clearly the case in autism. In my experience, we can start with general supplementation recommendations and then make adjustments based on the person’s response.

    I have protocols that I have developed over the years that work well for many people, but not all. This includes probiotics in singular fashion or multi-strained. For example, over the past year or so I have been using more spore-biotics for clostridia support. So far, it seems to be helpful, but I am starting to run into a few scenarios where they are not. So, I have to make adjustments to meet the demands of a person where it didn’t work. Anymore, I pretty much expect this to happen. In my experience, no one supplement, probiotic, medication, diet, etc. is going to be effective 100% of the time.

    I think you should trust your instincts and follow your developed methods based on your clinical experience. This experience is extremely valuable and more clinically relevant than a new marketing brochure from a supplement company.

    Dr. Woeller

    #1311

    Michael Joseph
    Participant

    Thanks for the in-depth reply. Dr Woeller,

    I spend a lot of time with probiotics, partly because I have seen their importance as part of human existence and also because they fascinate me. When I was taking my exams for my Doctorate, Microbiology was a weak point for me, and I failed the exam and had to re-take it. During my revisions I found that I really loved the subject matter and wound up acing my re-take of the text.

    Academic microbiology is exceptionally boring and focused on a ton of useless information, but when I got into the actual functional side of it and learned how individual species behave and react to stimuli I was hooked. I wound up doing some work for Good Belly and learned a ton about LP299v, and I also spoke with Jeff, VP of Masters Supplements (TruFiber) and he gave me some info about how L Plantarum competes with and repels Bifido Bacteria, so this is where I started looking into how species compete with each other and how they interact. It was the behavior of the organisms that really caught my interest. So, I started using single strain species or species of the same group together, such as L Rhamnosus and L Plantarum together, while using Bifido w/ the P freudenreichii.

    I use probiotics from multiple companies, including O’Donnell’s DDS-1 and Latero-sporus products, so when I see a probiotics company making hard-line statements about this or that probiotic “not working” it really annoys me, as if my clinical experience and research is now rendered meaningless and their “study” now outweighs my outcomes. They seem to use whatever study they can get their hands on to show just how everyone else isn’t any good and how their products are the best. I think that is a disingenuous use of research, if you ask me. There are several companies that fell into this trap…and a couple are so belligerent about it that I just won’t order from them.

    The great part about using different companies is that I have access to all sorts of strains and species and there are infinite combinations, so I can truly customize protocols. I have found that non-spore probiotics tend to be absolutely underdosed, so I tend to venture into the hundreds of billions of CFU several times per day of single species. I also agree with your comments about the quality of Klaire labs, but their probiotics have to be used the proper way or else there won’t be any results. The Factor 6 is a perfect example of this, because if someone uses it strictly for GI issues or constipation they won’t really find much success, but if used for UTI, Prostatitis, Kidney issues, or similar, they will find amazing results.

    That’s why these “Probiotic Wars” rub me the wrong way; it makes me think that many of these companies taking this type of marketing approach really don’t understand what these things do. They say things like “our spore forming probiotics work better!”…yeah, at what? That’s like saying a Baseball player is better that a Football player. They all do different things, and are used differently for different applications. It is hard to ignore when I get bombarded with emails with “studies” that show that everything I have done that has been working is, in fact, not really working and I should just buy 10 cases of their product instead. Very, very frustrating…

    Lastly, we don’t know a fraction of a fraction about the microbiota. One species could react one way in one person’s internal environment, while the exact same species in a different person would behave totally different. That’s why I think it really helps to have an open, unbiased mind here and really look at these organisms in the same way we view animals in an ecosystem, and how they behave/survive/thrive in different locales with different stimuli, etc… I am way more interested in studying these things than I am in Waring Probiotic Manufacturers…

    #1318

    DrWoeller
    Keymaster

    Michael,
    Have you ever thought about doing some professional writing on this topic or lecturing? I bet you have way more experience than most and we could all learn more from what you have seen clinically.

    Kurt

    #1326

    Michael Joseph
    Participant

    Hi Dr Woeller,

    Thanks for the reply and the encouragement. It is funny that you mention about writing and lecturing. Those are serious goals of mine, and I am about 20,000 words into a book on natural medicine and I also have the skeleton text of a book on food allergies, and several manuals in the works. I have done many lectures and power points but not nearly to the extent as you have.

    Regarding probiotics, the vast majority of what I know about them I got from your lectures and articles (I have been using your interfase and klaire labs protocol for years…really life changing stuff to be very honest) and Bill Shaw’s work. The rest is just stuff I picked up on from random books, studies, clinicians, and researchers. I started delving into a concept I call “heirloom probiotics”, species that are supposed to be in the gut that have been part of the human gut for millenia, and how they could be dying off and never to return. It is just a hypothesis. But I have learned that the information available about probiotcs is so sporadic, inconsistent, and non-linear that it can be a really confusing field. There is a ton of contradiction and conflict (“Probiotic wars”). Different labs have different tests (for instance, Genova’s stool test vs the MOAT from GPL) that have useful information but they seem to conflict with each other.

    Then there is the whole idea that probiotic species behave and react differently in different people. It’s not like vitamin C, for instance. I can predict how someone is going to react to vitamin C. I know and understand the probable and plausible outcomes, and how they will feel after taking a certain dosing of C. With probiotics, it is just so difficult to predict. That’s why I tend to start with one species or single species/species groups and eventually move up to building diversity. I have some good clinical experience with this, but so much of it feels like guess work. That’s one of the reasons why I took this course, because I want a better handle on predicting outcomes, and something tells me that I am probably about as far as I can go with it. Maybe it is impossible to improve on it, so I am not sure.

    I decided to stock up on a bunch of different probiotics from Klaire, ARG, O’Donnell, BBR, Good Belly, and Masters Supplements, and just experiment with their various protocol suggestions and see what I can accomplish with combinations from different companies.

    I apologize for another long post, but here is some of what I have discovered:

    1) L Rhamnosus (Klaire Factor 1) seems to combine really well with the Good Belly LP299v supplement capsule. I don’t understand why, but this combo is really well tolerated and I have seen general GI woes like gas, bloating, and constipation go away pretty quickly using this.

    2) Using Bifido Bacteria after a series of the Factor 1 has been my go-to protocol and with great results. The outcome is almost always very predictable bowel movements. In fact, in late 2016, I had a patient doing this protocol and she was able to fully recover from diverticulitis. It was a remarkable situation.

    3) Sac-B can be used a lot more liberally than I ever though possible.

    4) The Klaire Factor 6 has never been as good for improving bowel movements as I hoped. It is good but not “great”. However, I am blown away at how this probiotic combo absolutely eradicated prostate infections and symptoms of BPH. It lead me to this whole idea that many, many male prostate issues originate in the GI tract. I can personally vouch for this. It seems to work systemically too.

    5) I have found that the Propionibacterium freudenreichii does, in fact, work well with Bifido Bacteria. Just from personal use and from a handful of patients taking the two together, we are seeing an “enhancement” of the pro-bowel movement effects and also the lessening of bloating associated with increasing bifido bacteria. I don’t know, yet, if the increased propionic acid has any adverse effects.

    6) Lastly, I have a few patients taking the ProFlora from BBR with Bifido Bacteria in the evening, the factor-1 + good belly during the day, and also using the Biociden protocol [severe] and we have seen a dramatic improvement on MOAT re-testing with one patient to the point of totally eliminating some markers and bringing others back to normal. So, the combination of the species used with the biociden gave us results that this patient never had anything close to in 67 years of life.

    Thanks again for your reply and again, I apologize for being so long in the tooth with my comments here.

    #1328

    DrWoeller
    Keymaster

    Michael,
    That’s great. Sounds like you have been busy!

    I agree with you on supplement reactions to most common things, e.g. vitamin C, b-vitamins. But, with probiotics it is rather unpredictable. It make sense though as they are living things and have their own unique characteristics.

    Thanks for the information on your experience with various probiotics. I am starting to incorporate S. boulardii back into my treatments for some autistic kids. I move away from it years ago because of some negative reactions, but feel that it is time to give it a go again in select cases.

    I could see you doing a lecture series on this topic. Great information!

    Sincerely,
    Kurt

    #1329

    Michael Joseph
    Participant

    Hi Dr Woeller,

    Yes, I have been busy! The way I see it, if I am going to use biochemical nutrition, I need to make sure the GI tract is working right, and nutrients are absorbed correctly. So, working with Probiotics extensively does make sense to me.

    I have a recent OAT and MOAT follow up that was really encouraging, and it really shows that what you are talking about is spot-on. We tested in May of last year, and the re-test MOAT in Dec showed a dramatic reduction in 7 of 9 fungal markers (including a drop of 128 to 50 of Arabinose and a 0.00 from .55 in Oxyglutaric) and a drop in 5 bacterial markers, including a drop in 4-cresol of 28 points and a drop in HPHPA from 110 to 53. There were also some significant mental health improvements with the patient. Better focus, better mood, etc…and she has responded much better to the counseling than in May.

    So, just from that one test, it shows that this stuff works. I used a combination of high dose probiotics + the biociden protocol.

    I would absolutely love to do a lecture series on this. I wouldn’t know where to do it or how to set it up or who to do it for. I can tell you that my patients are VERY well versed now on probiotics and they understand them much better now!

    #1330

    Valerie Ozsu
    Participant

    I find this information helpful as it reinforces my feeling of finding what works for the person and not being swayed by the magic of marketing. I have been using BRAVO made my Dr. Ruggeiro’s lab and I purchase it from New Zealand. I have had a lot of luck using this along with the protocols that I have learned from Dr. Woeller’s courses. There is also a nondairy Bravo that has helped infants and toddlers or even adults with dairy issues. ON the other hand, I have had clients who have not tested well on Bravo and I have used Saccharomyces or Standard Process Prosynbiotic with good response. I basically work with the nutrition to help rebuild the gut and so far having good success from the few clients (not as many as you both have had I’m sure) I have worked with. This forum is so helpful to get information from other practitioners.

    #1333

    DrWoeller
    Keymaster

    Michael,
    AWESOME! I love hearing these kinds of positive transformations.

    Have you ever recorded from powerpoint? You can do a recording right off you computer and then export it to an MP4 video file. It very easy.

    Valerie,
    Don’t you do muscle testing to determine which ones to use?

    Dr. Woeller

    #1334

    DrWoeller
    Keymaster

    Valerie,
    Don’t you do muscle testing to determine which ones to use?

    I think Dr. Joseph’s experience with so many probiotics are very valuable.
    Dr. Woeller

    #1336

    Michael Joseph
    Participant

    Dr Woeller,

    I have several power point presentations but I have never recorded from power point. I do have a lot of experience in audio/video recording and editing though, so I am really interested in how to do that! Sounds like fun, and I have always wondered how to do it.

    All these companies have great products, so I enjoy getting to know how they all work. There are lots and lots out there that can be very effective. But this course has cleared up a lot for me with regards to the OAT and MOAT testing, so I am excited to apply what I learned moving forward.

    Glad to see others participating in this thread as well!

    #1337

    Valerie Ozsu
    Participant

    Dr. Woeller:

    Yes I do but I also use the information I got from your courses, my medical knowledge and my experience in what have helped other clients with same or similar issues. Michael’s information just adds to my database of product information in order to evaluate other products if what I use doesn’t work for a client. Your comment sounded like you were questioning the validity of muscle testing? I will admit that my medical background also makes training in kinesiology skeptical for me at times too but I recheck through other means (labs, patient’s response, and now the GPL labs) and so far so good. I know this approach is not for everyone but for those frustrated with medical care or being overloaded with meds and procedures that find nothing and don’t work or make them worse ~my work is becoming more successful with all the added knowledge I get and techniques that I learn.

    I don’t have a cookbook approach in my work and if I am going to “try” other products it comes from other professionals like you and other professionals on this forum doing this work. In the end, the patient’s improvement is what counts right? What product works for one may not work for another.

    I have a great story to tell you about a client I worked with (2 years now) during her amalgam removal, she had some skin cancer come up and had that removed, I kept finding her gut to be a challenge and on my fungus/mold kits kept testing positive. I put her a few different regimes to reverse this but she wasn’t as good following through. I convinced her to do the GPL tests and sure enough the results were very similar to my testing kits. She also had high oxalates. You agreed with my plan and so she was put on a Candida Diet plus low oxalates. It took her seeing the lab results in order to comply and she was great the entire time. skin, scalp issues came up, we dealt with it, she thought she had another lesion, I tried a product on the lesion but had her MD check it out. Negative results.

    She also had a history of TH3-4 thermograms from another provider. We retested GPL labs 6months (her choice) after her first and her levels improved (not 100%) but I reassured her to continue and she has. We did switch off probiotics from Bravo 1 day and Prosynbiotic the other due to the expense of Bravo.

    I just repeated her Thermogram in November and it was a TH1!!! She was incredibly happy as I was too. No more skin rashes, lesions and so far no more suspicious skin lesions. I will do another MOATS test to determine where we are but she can feel the improvements and I can validate it with labs.

    Thank you for your time in reading this. Once I get more GPL labs under my belt I’m hoping to put together a mini-study of my clients.

    #1338

    Valerie Ozsu
    Participant

    I have also been using this product from QuickSilver that is working well (also what I used in patient I described above). Started with an extremely low dose due to bowel sluggishness but it is improving.

    Ultra Binder optimizes the natural elimination of debris and toxins including endotoxin (LPS), metals, and unwanted microbial by-products through the intestines. Ultra Binder is an optimized combination of USP Sodium Bentonite clay, Activated Charcoal, Chitosan, Fibregum™ Bio (Acacia Gum), BiAloe® (Aloe Vera), and proprietary thiol-functionalized silica. The proprietary thiol-functionalized silica (also found in IMD Intestinal Cleanse) is superior to other metal-binding agents, as the active binding groups out-compete other compounds for metals in the intestines. Activated Charcoal effectively binds LPS, pesticides, herbicides, persistent organic pollutants, and mold toxins.* Bentonite Clay binds aflatoxin as well as other mold toxins. Chitosan binds to the bile and toxins that are secreted with it including heavy metals, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), phthalates, and bisphenol A (BPA). Fibregum™ Bio (Acacia Gum) supports the gastrointestinal mucosa health, the growth of friendly flora, and normal gastrointestinal function.* It is a low FODMAP friendly prebiotic fiber. Aloe vera has a soothing effect on the gastric mucosa, and minimizes gastric side effects which can occur when binders are taken alone. If pregnant, consult physician before use.May be stored at room temperature.

    I have also used these probiotics with success but again it depends on the person and their response:

    Prescript Assist: Each 620mg capsule of Prescript-Assist™ contains a proprietary blend of Leonardite and the following microorganisms: Arthrobacter agilis, Arthrobacter citreus, Arthrobacter globiformis, Arthrobacter luteus, Arthrobacter simplex, Acinetobacter calcoaceticus, Azotobacter chroococcum, Azotobacter paspali, Azospirillum brasiliense, Azospirillum lipoferum, Bacillus brevis, Bacillus marcerans, Bacillus pumilus, Bacillus polymyxa, Bacillus subtilis, Bacteroides lipolyticum, Bacteriodes succinogenes, Brevibacterium lipolyticum, Brevibacterium stationis, Kurthia zopfii, Myrothecium verrucaria, Pseudomonas calcis, Pseudomonas dentrificans, Pseudomonas fluorescens, Pseudomonas glathei, Phanerochaete chrysosporium, Streptomyces fradiae, Streptomyces cellulosae, Streptomyces griseoflavus.
    Other Ingredients: cellulose (vegetarian capsule), l-leucine, bamboo (Bambusa vulgaris) extract
    As a dietary supplement for adults, take 1-2 capsules per day, or as directed by your healthcare professional. May be taken with or without food.

    Adult Complete Biotic
    **Please note: This product contains a prebiotic. It is offered as a hypoallergic alternative.**
    This high-potency, hypoallergenic blend of 12 certified probiotic species offers a complete spectrum of microorganisms. Nutrivene Adult Complete Biotic is a unique combination of colonizing and transient strains providing broad coverage to support a healthy balance of microflora across the entire gastrointestinal tract.
    This product has been scientifically formulated with a full spectrum of synergistic and complementary species, and is designed for individuals who require significantly higher amounts of several different types of probiotic species to help support intestinal health. Formulated with 25+ billion CFUs per capsule, Nutrivene Adult Complete Biotic uses proprietary InTactic(tm) technology to ensure maximum delivery of live microorganisms throughout the intestinal tract.
    FUNCTIONS OF PROBIOTIC STRAINS
    • Produce lactic acid, hydrogen peroxide, and other compounds naturally antagonistic to pathogenic bacteria, yeast and viruses
    • Interfere with binding of pathogens to the intestinal mucosa
    • Compete with pathogenic organisms for nutrients
    • Produce short-chain fatty acids (acetate, propionate, and butyrate) that nourish the colon
    • Support innate and acquired immune defense mechanisms
    • Reduce production of proinflammatory cytokines
    • Improve immunological gut barrier function
    • Synthesize vitamin K and B vitamins
    • Produce lactase enzyme that helps digest the milk sugar lactose
    • Support activity of detoxifying enzymes and removal of ammonia and phenol
    • Produce analogs of the DPP-IV enzyme that break down opioid peptides
    One capsule provides Probiotic Blend (25+ billion CFUs) 160 mg* including 6.0+ CFUs* Lactobacillus rhamnosus, 5.0+ billion CFUs* Bifidobacterium bifidum, 3.0+ billion CFUs* Lactobacillus acidophilus, 2.5+ billion CFUs* Lactobacillus casei, 2.0+ billion CFUs* Lactobacillus plantarum, 2.0+ billion CFUs* Lactobacillus salivarus, 1.0+ billion CFUs* Bifidobacterium longum, 1.0+ billion CFUs* Streptococcus thermophilus, 1.0+ billion CFUs* Lactobacillus bulgaricus, 0.5+ billion CFUs* Lactobacillus paracasei, 0.5+ billion CFUs* Bifidobacterium lactis, and 0.5+ billion CFUs* Bifidobacterium breve.
    *Daily value not established
    Other Ingredients: Inulin base derived from chicory root, InTactic® proprietary polysaccharide complex, vegetarian capsule (hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, water), and L-leucine.
    Free of the following common allergens: milk/casein, eggs, fish, shellfish, tree nuts, peanuts, wheat/gluten, corn, yeast, and soybeans. Contains no artificial colors, flavors, or preservatives.
    Suggested Use: As a dietary supplement take one capsule daily or as directed by a physician. Capsules may be pulled apart and nutrients taken separately.
    Storage: Refrigerate and keep tightly closed to maintain product potency.

    Saccharomyces boulardii: is a non-pathogenic, transient yeast long-used for diarrhea or dysentery. It is a hardy, acid-resistant, temperature tolerant microorganism that is not affected by anti-bacterial agents. S. boulardii is genetically and functionally distinct from brewer’s yeast (S. cerevisiae) and different from pathogenic Candida species. S. boulardii increases the activities of intestinal brush border enzymes such as disaccharidases, a-glucosidases, alkaline phosphatases, and aminopeptidases. It secretes a leucine aminopeptidase that appears to support against allergies to dietary proteins following acute gastroenteritis. S. boulardii augments the intestinal absorption of D-glucose coupled with sodium that may enhance uptake of water and electrolytes during diarrhea. It increases stool concentrations of short-chain fatty acids that nourish colon mucosal cells. Oral intake of S. boulardii increases colonic populations of healthful bifidobacteria and reduces numbers of pathogenic clostridia. It modulates immunity by boosting intestinal secretion of IgA and increasing crypt cell immuno-globulin receptors. It inhibits inflammatory cytokine pathways and secretes a factor that blocks C. difficile toxin A activities. Research has found that S. boulardii supports healthy intestinal function in an array of clinical settings including antibiotic-associated diarrhea, C. difficile disease, inflammatory bowel disease, irritable bowel syndrome, and travelers diarrhea.

    Michael have you used any of these products and what was your experience?

    #1341

    Michael Joseph
    Participant

    Hi Valerie,

    I am familiar with these species, for sure. The first product you mentioned has a lot of soil-based or spore forming organisms. When it comes to those, I try to keep it very, very simple, and there are a lot of different species in there. My goal with probiotics is to increase the predictability of the outcome, and when using so many strains or species, it can be a little more unpredictable than I want.

    Usually I would use multispecies after doing high amounts of single species during different parts of the day. One thing I discovered was the idea that organisms compete with one another, so I am very cognizant of this. I’ll do a multispecies separate from a bifido combo, just to increase diversity, but I will usually do L Rhamnosus by itself or with L Plantarum. The LP299v is a really great strain of Plantarum. I don’t think there is a lot of research that really focuses on how these organisms behave with one another, and why some compete and some don’t. I try to keep L Plantarum and Bifido separate as I have seen a lab report that shows that L Plantarum can prevent Bifido from colonizing if they are present at the same time.

    So much of this stuff comes down to adhesion. So, lots of lactobacilli, in theory, could inhibit other bacteria from adhering to the GI lining. That’s why I keep the L rhamnosus and the L plantarum separate; they produce large amounts of acetic and lactic acid, which is great for interfering with the colonization of pathogens. I usually keep them away from soil or spore forming organisms, while I tend to use Bifido and DDS-1 with soil based or spore forming.

    A lot of this stuff is really a “gut feeling” based on very limited data on literally a whole new micro-world in our guts that maybe some people don’t really recognize. See, my focus is how these organisms behave with other organisms and in their environment; how they respond to different stimuli, how they react to different changes in the environment, what happens when the volume of the cells changes, etc…I think that area is the key, because we have to understand that these are living organisms who have the basic instinct to survive and thrive. There is much I don’t know, but also much that we don’t know as a community about these things. To me, it seems to be missing the point for practitioners to look at these organisms as if they are inert substances that behave the exact same way in each person. I think we need to study them the same way a Zoologist studies wild animals, and take into consideration that the “effectiveness” of such organisms will depend very much on a variety of variables, some of which we can’t control.

    Speaking of adhesion, I have seen many, many practitioners who speak about Sac-B being useful for improving adhesion of colonizing bacteria, which is a good thing and may also be a bad thing. So, we need to be cognizant that other organisms may want to take advantage of an opportunity to colonize in the presence of Sac-B. Maybe that’s why we have heard over the years to not take Sac-B for longer than a certain period of time? And maybe why it is so helpful for post ABX treatment w/ bifido bacteria? And this is also why I precede nearly every protocol with L Rhamnosus and sometimes combined with LP299v: to “clear the land” to allow other beneficial organisms can colonize or adhere.

    It would seem that adherence is the key that unlocks the door to getting the most out of probiotics, or to understanding how pathogens are able to colonize and form biofilm. Again, this is all based on my experience and what I have observed, and what I have gathered from as many different “unique” sources as possible.

    I hope this was helpful!

    #1342

    Valerie Ozsu
    Participant

    Michael:
    Thank you for the information. I agree with you. What company sells these
    L Rhamnosus and sometimes combined with LP299v products?

    Thank you,
    Valerie

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